Genealogy Interview To protect my privacy and security, the names of certain close relatives have been redacted. Descriptions of the redacted names are as follows: [2] = my father [4] = my paternal grandfather [4dP] = my aunt. She is a daughter of my paternal grandfather. The first letter of her first name is P. Date: 27 December 2014 Location: N32.2883 W82.7306 People in attendance and some of their relationships: Billy Knight ("Billy"): brother of [4] Bryant Knight ("Bryant"): grandson of [4] [4dP]: niece of Billy Knight Betty Knight ("Betty"): wife of Billy Knight Bryant used a digital voice recorder to record the interview, and afterwards he transcribed selected portions. The transcription appears below and is divided into sections. The numbers appearing at the beginning of each section (and occasionally within a section) denote the time lapsed between when the voice recorder was turned on and when the immediately following words were spoken. ----- 00:02:13 [4dP]: I asked Mama one time what did we have in us. Mama said, "A bunch of shit." Hahaha. [...] Billy: Ira or Geneva that time telling me, said, "Grandma Knight, Grandma Knight was a Indian." "A Indian?" Said, "Yeah." And I thought, "Well, shit, she musta been a Indian, ya know?" And then, then uh, [interrupted by other speakers] ----- 00:22:47 [4dP]: [2] used to make Mama mad. He'd tell her, we'd see buzzards flying around up there, and ah, in the air, and [my father]'d say, "Mama, I bet you know them, they, they lookin' for you." Make her so mad, hahaha. It'd make her so mad. Bryant: W-, What, what was he, um? That's funny. Why would he say that? Just tryin' to get on her nerves? [4dP]: Because he knew it made her mad. ----- 00:40:10 [4dP]: Did you ever hear that Mama's Daddy shot and killed a man in Soperton? And the sheriff was too scared to do anything to him, they were scared of him. Billy: No [4dP]: And they put him in one of them railroad cars up there and made him a stay a night or two, and let him go. Billy: No, I-- I-- [4dP]: Virginia told me that. ----- 00:43:44 Billy: You know, back then they had the Ku Klux Klan. They had them when I was a little boy. Cause you'd see 'em come by some nights, and they'd have a lantern or a bunch of lanterns, they'd have a bunch of lanterns, and uh, and Daddy'd say, "Somebody gon' get their ass tore up tonight." [4dP]: See I never knew him. When, I remember him when he was in a bed, that's all, that's all I knew, though. I didn't know, hahaha, I didn't know what he was like. I'd like to know. He was a big man, but good golly, but I wasn't but like, what, 3 or 4 years old, heh. Everybody's big when you're that little. Billy: He was a pretty good size fella. [4dP]: He was a big man. Billy: I think he was 6'4". Probably before he got sick he was about 230. [4dP]: Do you know he died on March 23rd? Billy: Oh. [4dP]: Do you know Momma died on March 23rd? Billy: Oh, hm. [4dP]: Sure did. I looked at that, and I said, "Oh Lord have mercy." ----- 45:16 Billy: Grandma and Granpda. Thigpen grave up there in Rockledge. [clears throat] My, her, uh, their daughter Serenie. [clears throat] They had, they had a, they had Mama and Aunt Serenie and Lee and, uh, uhmm, Uncle Brince[?]. They had Brince, and, well, Brince was the oldest. And then I think, uh, it was Zee[?] and then Mama and then Aunt Serenie. Aunt Serenie was the youngest. But her first old man, he died, and didn't no one ever put no headstone on his grave and all. And, ah, when I retired, I went, I had one put one up there because I said, "Well," I told Betty, I said, "You know, it's a shame," I said, "You know won't nobody never know who's buried there after I'm gone." And, ah, I did. I didn't know that, ah, ahhh, what was her name, Betty, the one over there in Rockledge? Umm... The one we stop to see once in a while? Betty: Mert? Billy: No. [...] Yeah, Linette[sp?] Hazel. [...] She came over here one day, and she was talking, and she said, "You know," said, "somebody put a headstone over Lee Jackson's grave?" I said, "I did. I didn't know nobody ever knowed, knowed he was buried there but me." She said, "Yeah." I remembered him 'cause him and Aunt Serenie back, back [unintelligible] [Billy tells a story about Lee Jackson, Serenie's first husband, giving him toys from Cracker Jack boxes, and Serena would read the comics to him.] ----- 1:19:48 Billy: Now what'd you want to know? [...] Bryant: Anyway, um, these are just some basic questions. These aren't, ah, obviously this isn't a, a script or anything. If you got something else you wanna shoot for, it's fine. Ah, let's see, ah, one thing I know that you, your, your Daddy was, was, you know he was drafted, you probably, I'm sure you knew about that. Did he ever say--It was late in the war, though.--did he ever kinda say anything about, you know, what happened after he got drafted or anything? Billy: He went to basic training, and then the war was over. Bryant: That's kinda what I th-, that's kinda what I was picking up on. Uh. I think it said he was, he was being trained for, like, how to shoot a machine gun or something. I thought that was pretty cool, but uh... Billy: And then he said at, ah, at the end he left, and when he got you know, ah, discharged, he come down to Rockledge. That's where he met my Mama. Bryant: Yeah, I noticed they got married a few years later after... Billy: She wasn't but 15, I think it was. Bryant: Did they, they, did they ever say anything about how they kinda, like, met, or, like, when they were dating or anything? Billy: Mama just said. Mama just said, "I fell in love with him. He had pretty, pretty good black hair you ever seen." That was about all I ever heard about it, just you know. Bryant: They didn't say a whole lot. Billy: I knew, though, he's from Deavestep[?]. Bryant: What? Billy: [clears throat] Deavestep[?], Georgia? Bryant: Where's that? Billy: It's ah, ah. Bryant: I saw something said I think he was born maybe in Harrison, a little town. Billy: You know where, ah, ah, It's in that area, it's in that, ah, ah, it's in the county. [illegible] But he didn't have an add-, no place on there, you know. Said it thought he was in, ah, oh ah, no, I don't know the name of the place. It's just outside Swainsboro, you go up there, me and Betty went up there to Deavestep. Bryant: Hm, how do you, do you know how to spell that? Sorry. I'm having a hard. Do you know how to spell that, or? I'm having a hard time hearing exactly what you're saying. De-, Destep? I'm just not familiar. Billy: No, ah, D, D A N D P... Betty can spell it. She'll tell you when she come in here. Bryant: Well, it ain't too big a deal. Billy: But anyhow, that's where, that's where, ah, we, ah, me and her went up there to see if, ah, we went up there to see if we could find a, you know, anything on the records about the Knights up there. Ah, and they was, we went at the wrong time, we went on Saturday and wasn't nothin' open. So then we went back, and then I found out Grandma and Grandpa were buried over here, so I didn't have no need to go back. I didn't even know where they were buried at. Bryant: Oh. Yeah, it's just a little cemetery out there. I went there a while back. I think there was a church next door. Billy: Yeah, there's a church right next to it. Church over here, and cemetery over... Bryant: Yeah, I think it was, it was, it was him and then her and then I think one of they kids. Billy: Yeah, Aunt Emma. Ain't no, Aunt Emma, and yeah, that was the other one. Uh, George Lee. Bryant: Yeah, George Lee. Billy: That was her boy. The one that ain't marked is Aunt Emma, I think it is. I don't think hers is got no marking on it. And ah, ah, and then the one that died at childbirth, ah, he's over there, and ah. And like I said, Aunt Emmabelle is over there. Daddy's sister. He wasn't really their brother. He was one that they raised, Grandma and Grandpa Knight raised, and, ah. He done, he went to Florida. I never seen him. Bryant: You talkin' 'bout George? Billy: No. His name was, ah, ah, my God, I can't think of his name right now. Bryant: It's alright. I'm pushing. Billy: Faye. You know that first cousin I was tellin' you 'bout in Missourri? Bryant: Mm hmm. Billy: He was telling me that he had two boys. And, ah. My uncle Dave, he didn't like him. George Lee, the one that was over there? Everybody called him Dave. His name was George Lee, but everybody called him Dave. And, he used to, he wasn't never married. He was crippled. [...] And he'd always, he'd come to the house, and he'd stay two or three months, then he'd go to one of the other kinfolks, and he'd stay two or three months. That's the way he done it. He just went from one here to the other. And. 1:25:50 Billy: After we moved to Macon, after we moved up there to Macon, he, ah, ah, he come up there and stayed a couple of times with us. He mighta stayed more than that. I don't remember how many times he came up there and stayed with us. [clears throat] His, uh, he, uh, what was I gonna say? He, ah, he, uh, hm. I had half his name up there and I forgot. ----- 1:26:44 Bryant: See another thing I saw, um, your Daddy after the, when he was discharged, it, you know, he ah, obviously he never actually went overseas or anything, but it said that he was, ah, it said 16% disabled. You know anything about that? It never really, it didn't say why or, you know? Billy: Ulcers. He had ulcers in his stomach. Bryant: Stomach? Oh, okay. Billy: They operated on him and took most of 'em out. You know, got the ulcers out. But, uh, they thought he was gonna die. They pulled all his teeth but one. You believe that? When they operated. And he had one tooth right there. And, ah, ah, and when they, when they... Like I said, they thought that, ah... The doctor was Claxton, up there in Dublin, old man Claxton. And they, he thought he was gonna die, so he didn't even, he didn't even put his entrails back in there right. He just plopped them over in there and, and sowed him up. And Daddy pulled through, you know. And oh many years later, when Daddy got, Daddy when he had to go up there in the hospital Dublin--Macon, the doctor looked at him and examined him and all, and he told Mama, he said, "Who done that surgery on him?" She told him. She told him. He said, "Is he still practicing medicine? If he is, you can sue him." She said, "No. He's dead." She said, "They thought he was gon' die." He said, "Yeah, but it don't matter if you think they gon' die or not. If he ain't dead, you gotta still go back and, you know, fix 'em right before you close 'em back up." But he didn't. And then, then later on he had that stroke. But he always had trouble with heartburn. I remember him gettin' up and goin' take the ah, ah baking powders, take a spoonful of that. Yeah, that's what he used to, used to have to take. He drank a lot of milk, but it didn't... Back then you had a bunch of pork, you know, you know to survive. I know now what that is. Boy, that's aggravatin' stuff. Bryant: Nowadays it's a little bit easier to treat, I don't know, it may have helped him, but anyway that way, obviously he didn't have those drugs, but... Billy: But that, that's why he was, he was disability. And then they, ah, they claimed he got alright, you know, and, and ah, cut out his check. You know he wasn't getting but I think it was twelve dollars a month back is what he was gettin'. And we moved to Macon. Daddy wasn't, ah, Daddy wasn't paralyzed then. He got paralyzed over there--You know that house? Did you handle that thing there, up there in Macon? 1:30:18 Bryant: Um, what, you talkin' 'bout the, the house over, d-downtown on New Street? You talkin' 'bout that house there? Yeah, mm hmm. Billy: Yeah. Yeah. All right, we's livin' there when he got paralyzed. And then we moved around there. Bryant: What, now, what, what now how'd he get paralyzed? Was it the stroke that, that? Billy: Yeah. Bryant: Stroke. 'Bout when'd he have the stroke, do you remember? Doesn't really matter, just curious. Billy: I don't really remember. Bryant: 'Cause I know Daddy, my Daddy, he's just like, "The only thing I remember about him was, uh, is, you know, he just was in kinda bad shape, whatever, crippled and stuff, y'know." Billy: [4] wasn't never real big. He was always skinny. But he was, I think he was in bad shape when he was little, too. 'Cause according to what, you know he didn't go to school. [clears throat] Bryant: Who, your Daddy? Billy: No, your Dadd--your Grandpa. I don't know 'bout Daddy. I don't know if he could read or not. I do know my Mama sure could. Bryant: Yeah, I think, if it helps you, one of the censuses said that your Daddy couldn't read, and it said your Mama could. Billy: Yeah, she could read real good. She could read and write and do 'rithmetic, whatever she wanted to do. Uh, but uh, she didn't, she wouldn't. I believe she [illegible] the sixth grade or seventh grade, uh. You know they had to walk to school. She had to walk about two miles every day to school and two miles back. And she went over there, she went, ah, she went over there to Rockledge and went to school over there at Rockledge. It was a little old school up there on the railroad track, beside the railroad track. That's where she went to school at. 1:32:14 Billy: And, ah, but our Daddy... He, ah, he was well-educated. Grandpa Thigpen. And most of them Thigpens was. Bryant: Sorry, I'm gonna set this up here so I can refer to it. My memory is not obviously as-as good as yours. And some of this stuff, okay, alright. Billy: William Thigpen? Bryant: Yeah, Willie or William Thigpen. Okay. Billy: Ah, like I said, he, ah, his, a bunch of his kinfolks come over here as engineers and all[?] that stuff. Bryant: Oh. Hm. Billy: He's in a cemetery back over yonder on the other corner on 86. A bunch of them, some of them died, ah, buried over there. And then it's got on one of 'em's he was a engineer. He surveyed, ah, ah, ah, McK-, ah, ah, shoot... I know what county S-Swainsboro's in, and I can't even think about it. Bryant: That's alright. I mean, Swainsboro, you say, Swainsboro, you, that's fine. Em-Emanuel County. Billy: Emanuel, I think so, but anyhow he, he surveyed it. That, and over there, ah, ah... ----- 1:36:51 Bryant: Oh, yeah, you, you mentioned the move to Macon was, ah, you know, y'all lived like at least kinda far from, you know about 50 miles or so from Macon maybe. Was there any special reason you moved to Macon? Billy: The cotton mill. Bryant: Cot- It was the cotton mill, okay. Bryant: Yeah, I noticed first, you know first they was downtown, then later on a few years later they moved to, ah, out in Payne City. Billy: Payne City. But we lived, we lived at that house that you had, then we moved over on Mulberry Street. We lived on Mulberry Street. 1:37:15 Bryant: Oh, y'all lived on Mulberry? Billy: Yeah. Right there, you know where that school is there in Mulberry, on Mulberry Street? Bryant: I don't know the school. Well, right, yeah, it's, yeah, right across, yeah, I know where you're talkin' about. It's that little Catholic school or something, like maybe Saint Joseph's. Billy: Yeah. Back then it was just a-- Bryant: Right across. Billy: Yeah, ah, I did know the name of the school, but that, that's been so many years ago. But I-- Bryant: It wasn't, ah, I think it, I think it just might be called, you know, th- that Catholic church up there is Saint Joseph's. I think it might just be called Saint Jas-- Saint Joseph's Catholic school or something maybe . Billy: It might be now, but back then, it was, ah... Bryant: I could be mistaken, something different. Billy: Back then it was a man's name, but I don't remember Bryant: who it was Billy: But anyhow, we lived across, across the street, ah, comin' down Mulberry Street. Uh, let's see, that was 333 New Street. And that was, I believe, let's see, something 85 [or 95?] Mulberry Street. It was a number, 80, but anyhow, I done forgot that, too. Whu... Uh... [murmuring] 1:38:23 Bryant: How long'd y'all live there? Billy: I don't know, maybe two or three years. Two years. That, ah, the only reason we moved there was on account of Daddy. You know he was paralyzed. He couldn't walk down stairs no more, and we moved down there in the bottom. And, ah, lived down there for quite a while. Bryant: You know I was gon' ask, that, ah, you know that house on New Street is, is a fairly large building. It was, it was just y'all there? Or was it, was there, like, multiple people there? Billy: We lived upstairs. Bryant: Upstairs, okay. So it was how many? How many, like, other families or whatever were there? Billy: They was, they wasn't but two families in there. Bryant: Two. Two families? Yeah. Billy: That's right. 'Cause they's one downstairs, and we lived upstairs. Bryant: Upstairs, I see. Billy: And, ah, they was two houses there, though, then. It was that one at thirty--, ah, that one we lived in, and they was another one right beside of it, on the other side of it. They tore it down. Bryant: I think I've noticed there's like a little empty lot right next to that building, so... Billy: We used to go up there. We used to go to the funeral home there and get them coffin boxes and carry 'em up there. That's when we lived on Mulberry Street. We carry 'em up there and carry 'em up on that hill there... and get in 'em and slide down that grass. 1:39:43 Bryant: You talkin' about that Coleman Hill? Billy: Yeah. Bryant: Yeah. Billy: Slide down that hill, and we done that a lot. But then one of them ole boys, I don't know who it was, but anyhow, one of 'em found a, ah, you know them things you lay on and guide? Bryant: Yeah, like a little, I know what you talkin' about, I don't know what it's called. Billy: But anyhow, he found one that didn't have no back wheels. He had the front wheels. And he carried it out there, and we'd ride that thing. But now that thing, it'll, it'll go. We hit the highway and just kept on goin'. And we was out there one day, and that ole boy, uh... shoot, I know him... but anyhow he's riding, he come down that hill, and the city bus comin', the city bus come by, he went under it, he went under it right behind the front wheels and come out over on the other side. And the bus driver thought he done run over him. He, bus driver locked them brakes down, he jumped out, and the ole boy jumped up. Blankenship. No. It wasn't Blank--. But anyhow the ole boy jumped up, and he hit a, he run into a car, knocked they headlight [?]. Bryant: Wait, he what? Was he all right? What happened to 'im? Billy: He run into a car. A parked car. Bryant: Oh, a parked car. Billy: Yeah, he'd done busted they headlight with his head. Bryant: Oh. Oh, okay. But he was okay? Billy: Oh, yeah. He jumped up and took off from there. Bryant: [chuckles] I bet he did. Billy: And that ole bus driver, he was, boy, he was all upset. ----- 1:45:25 Billy: You know that picture of Momma and Daddy down there at, when we lived on, that little old car where they's at, that old car? Bryant: Uh, I think that's, talkin' about that one on your wall right there? I got it. Okay, yeah. [mumbling] Billy: Okay, that there was took when we was livin' down there in Rockledge, out in Rockledge. Bryant: Oh, okay. Yeah, I noticed there were a bunch of trees or something like that [mumbling]. Billy: Yeah, that was Daddy's old car. That's first, and [unclear] Bryant: You know what kind of car that was, or? Billy: It was an old Model T. Bryant: Yeah, that's what I figured. Ford of some kind. Billy: It didn't have no lights on it. Lights were blowed or whatever. And, ah, and, ah, we used to go from over there at Rockledge, over where we lived, and, ah, I don't know, four or five miles, to a. Back then, the shows was, was a tent. Moving tent. And they'd bring 'em Westerns and all around and show 'em on the, on the screen in them tents. Bryant: So they just, like, set the tent up and just have a, mm, okay. Kinda like a mo-- like a temporary theater or something, okay, I see. Billy: Yeah, that's what it was. We'd go over there to them shows. And we'd been over there, and ___ [unclear] or one of 'em was ridin' the bumper up there with a lantern and holdin' it down below the, the grill so they could see outta the, you know, see the roa--, ah... Bryant: See the road at nighttime or somethin', yeah. Billy: Yeah. Bryant: [chuckles] Well if it works, you know, I guess. Billy: Yeah. Keep anybody from runnin' over you, too. Oh, I'll never forget that. That was so funny. Bryant: So somebody would actually like sit on the, sit on the, I, I couldn't see that. Somebody would sit on the front of it and hold it? Billy: Yeah. Bryant: And everybody else would be in the actual cab or something. Okay. Hm. All right. Billy: [mumbling] hold the lantern down there. You couldn't hold it up, then whoever's behind you couldn't see a thing. Had to hold it below the, the dash line. Bryant: Mm-hmm. Billy: But you could drive. They could drive like that. You could see good enough to drive. Bryant: Mm. Mm. Well. If it works, I reckon. 1:47:29 Bryant: Uh, let's see, ah. Again, if you have anything else you wanna shoot at, ah, take a crack at it, but, ah, any, ah, one question I have: Did they have any sort of, like, did your parents or, or you, or, or really anybody really, ah, did y'all have a ___ [unclear], like a, you know, like a, like everybody, oh y'all like this, like a favorite song, or a certain movie they liked, or anything, or you liked or anything like that... [mumbling, fades out] Billy: Not really, but they did, we have everybody liked the Grand O' Opry. Bryant: Grand Ole Opry, huh? Billy: Yeah, [chuckle]. That was the thing. Saturday night it'd be on the radio. We didn't have no TV 'til we moved to Macon. Bryant: Right. Yeah, radio, you know, used to be a lot more... bigger thing. Billy: Ah, we first moved up there, and one of our neighbors, the one that was in that house that they tore down? Bryant: Mm-hmm. Billy: They had one. It was big as--, 'bout as big as a refrigerator. Bryant: Goodness. Billy: But they had a little screen about that big in the middle of it. Bryant: [chuckles] Billy: I ain't sc--- [unable to continue speaking for a time...] We, ah, I watched, I watched that quite a bit. And then they moved. Bryant: What they'd have then? It was just, like, Channel 13, I guess, or, what, they? ___ WMAZ? 1:48:43 Billy: Yeah, they had 13, and they had forty-- I believe a 47. It was Western. That's all it showed on there, was old Westerns. 1:49:10 Bryant: Ah, anyway, I don't know, you know, your ah, your grandparents, ah, George and, uh, Mary Alice, umm... I don't know if you knew a whole lot. Is there anything in particular you kinda knew about them? I didn't, I think one of them died before you even were born, so... Billy: I didn't know. Born, yeah, and ah, and the other one Bryant: And the other one died real, when you were really young, but ah... Billy: Yeah. I think about I's about five, like I said, and that one up yonder in, ah, Missourri, she was about ten. Uh, I remember goin', goin' over there. We rode the mule and wagon. Bryant: Goin' where to? Billy: Ah, we come up there at Rockledge and went over here to, over there to Treutlen County, ah... [clears throat] We went over there to Treutlen County. Ah, it was about... From Rockledge, it, ah, I mean from, ah, Soperton, it was about, ah, five miles... or six miles from Soperton. That's where he died at. Ah, it's like, you know how I got them tombstones on that, on Grandma and Grandpa's over there? 1:50:36 Bryant: Who? Did, did you put those there? Billy: Yeah. They didn't have nothing. Bryant: I noticed they were modern-looking. Okay. Well, I'm glad you put it there because I never woulda. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Good job. Billy: That's what I said. I, I put him one 'cause I didn't know. And I didn't know which one was buried on which side. And I asked Faye. She came down and showed me which one was their grave. 1:51:06 Bryant: Sorry, who, who's Faye? I'm sorry, um. Billy: That first cousin up there in Missouri. Bryant: Oh, okay, I see. Billy: And, ah, she told me, she said, I asked her, I said, "Which side, which side's Grandma on?" She said, "I think she's on this side." Then she said, "Nah, I don't know. She might be on that side." I said, "Well, I know she's on one side or the other. I don't know, either." I just put, you know, like they're on there. I couldn't put one because they was far apart. Bryant: Yeah, they a little bit spaced out. Billy: Yeah, on account, ah, back then you had to dig your own grave, and they didn't get too close to the other one. Bryant: Right. Billy: To keep from falling into one. Bryant: Makes sense. Billy: Anyhow, she said, I told her, I said, "I'm 'on' have 'em, I'm 'on' have 'em a tombstone put up there." And when I got up there, I sent her a picture of it. And she said, she called me back, she, she said, "Can I help you pay for 'em?" I said, "No, they done paid for 'em." I told her, I said, __ [unclear]. When I was looking for, you know, where, when I went to the funeral home tryin' to find where they were buried at, they ain't got a head marker, they not, they not put in that book. I didn't know that. Bryant: So, what? Say that again. Billy: If you ain't got a headstone, they don't put 'em in that online, you know, on-- online. Bryant: Online. Right. Yeah, I see what you're sayin'. Billy: Uh. That, that's what they told me over at the funeral home. And I told 'em, I said, "If I get 'em a headstone, will it, will it be ___ [unclear]?" He said, "Yeah. If they got a headstone, it'll be on there." I said, "Okay." Uhhh, that's like my, my other aunt, Aunt Serenie is the one we was talkin' about wallago, she died. All she had was ___ [unclear]. And he, ah, he didn't work. He said it's not a nursing home, but one he just stays in 'cause he don't work. He ain't never worked. All he does is draw enough that money to keep him in that home. And, ah, uhh, he didn't have the money. [incoherent mumbling] 1:53:53 Billy: Me and Elaine and Betty, we was over there lookin' at the headstones one day. We wasn't looking really, we were looking for Aunt Serenie's, but we walked up on hers, and, ah, Elaine said, "What year was Aunt Serenie buried?" I said, "I don't know. Look on the headstone." She said, "They ain't ___ [unclear]." And then, ah, I went up there to the funeral home. I didn't know you had to go up and pay 'em to come out and put the date on there. I thought they done it, you know, 'cause you bought the headstone. Bryant: Right. Billy: I went up there. I told 'em, I said, "Hey." I said, "Ain't never put the date on Serenie Beasley's, ah, headstone when she dead, when she died." ----- 1:56:33 Bryant: Ah, let's see, ah, [sigh]. Uh, one thing that, s-, s-, some of this I, it's kinda just general information, but there is actually one part of the sort of the tree I, I've really been stumped on. Um, you, basically, you know, um, you had your Mom Julie and then her, her Mom, uh, Sallie. Billy: Ah-hmm. Bryant: Um, do you know anything about Sallie's parents? I know that's gettin' kinda far back, uh. I've, I've had a real tough time. In, in fact, of course, this is just your, but I've done other stuff on my Mom's side and all that, and by far that is the shortest branch back by far. I've just, I've really been stumped on it. If you know of any sort of thing that, that might be useful. As far as I can tell her father's name was George, ah George Williams. That was what was listed on the death certificate, but I haven't been able to find anything else about him or anything really. Um. Billy: I really know no, no, none about 'em either. Grandma died when, Grandma Thigpen died when, she died I was just I musta been about sev-- six or seven. Uh, Grandpa, Grandpa Thigpen when I musta, I's probably about three. I just barely remembered him. 1:57:43 Billy: He used to sit out there on the back porch. They had a long porch 'tween the house and the kitchen. And he had over there[?] had them, round columns like that, but it was wood. And he had, he had wrote all over 'em. Done math and all kinds of stuff all over 'em. And [chuckle]. And, uh... Bryant: [brief mumble] scribbling type stuff? Billy: Yeah, he'd be out there. You'd see him out there sometimes just writin', you know. Bryant: With like a marker, I guess? Billy: Like he's keepin' records out there or some'in', I don't know. Bryant: Oh, okay. 1:58:20 Billy: But, ah, I know him and Ma, him and Grandma. Grandma was short. Grandma Thigpen? Bryant: Mm-hmm. Billy: And, ah, but like I said, I don't know. I didn't know no nothin' about her folks. Bryant: I didn't. You know, like I said, that's gettin' kinda far back, but I, I didn't figure you would. It was just a long shot. Yeah, I, I, I'm pretty stuck on that. [...] ----- 1:59:17 Billy: Yeah, like I said, Grandma and Gr-, uh, Grandma Thigpen Knight, I didn't know nothin' about. Might be up there, some of it might be up there in Thigpen cemetery. I don't know. Uh. I know, uh, Grandpa and Grandma is up there, and then their Momma and Daddy is up there. Uh, I couldn't even tell you which one they was now, it's been so long. Momma said they was a black fella buried up there in that cemetery. I didn't know. When I was a little boy, my Mama, she called his name. She said, "He buried right down here." He wasn't put up there with the, up there with everybody else, you know, the family. He was put out there, to-, toward the road. Bryant: What cemetery was that? Billy: Huh? Bryant: What cemetery was that? Billy: Thigpen. Bryant: Thigpen? The same one your parents are buried at? Billy: Yeah, over there in Rockledge. And he said, he said, that, uh, he said that, uh, she said, she called his name, she said, he, when they set the slaves free, he wouldn't leave. She said he stayed right on with Grandma, with, ah, Grandma, Grandpa, wha-, or whoever until he died, and they buried him near the Thigpen cemetery. And, uh, so, sure enough, uh. Now they done buried over it, you know. They buried where he was buried. They didn't even know he was there, I know. Uh... Bryant: You don't re- recollect his name or anything, do you? Billy: No. Like I said, he, Mama said he had the biggest flat feet she ever seen. She said he never wore a pair of shoes. Bryant: Well, that's pretty much all I had.